aWoD: Continued

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:36 pm

So I added a basic Dowsing Test.

It is my intention that if people want, that it would be easy enough to put together a "Sabbat Book" where people built up the skeleton laid out in the main text and went into more detail on the various Sabbat cities and orders. Certainly there are a number of places you could talk about in just Prague or Ciudad de Mexico that I never covered - while it's mostly very thin fluff and space filling, Shadows of Mxico is seriously as long as the entire aWoD book right now (in terms of word count). It would actually be helpful to write in much longer descriptions on the issues that the various factions are invested in. It's an important fact that in Mexico you can seriously propose something like "The Sabbat should invest some of its money into investing in human corporations" and get the Liberals and Conservatives to sign on (against the Catholics and Skulkers). I think there's a lot of room for people to run with that sort of thing.

One thing that bothers me is this fact:

Prague: 2500 words
San Francisco: 2500 words
Kuala Lumpur: 3000 words
Ciudad de Mexico: 4000 words

That's a worrying trend.

-Username17

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:08 pm

Falgund wrote:
They are not allowed to deliberately kill luchadores
What is the official position on turning them into a Vampire/Lycanthrope ?

Then you get to face off against the latest incarnation of El Santo, Blue Demon, or Mil Máscaras, I wager. Nothing quite like facing off against a Transhuman Luchadore with decades of experience hunting down and murdering supernatural creatures with their bare hands!

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:12 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Ciudad de Mexico.

It is up.

-Username17

Compulsive edit:

The narcotics shipments (and transshipments) to the United States compromise an industry

I think you mean comprise

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:32 pm

Josh_Kablack wrote:
I think you mean comprise

Yes.

Falgund wrote:I think this should be "square kilometers"

Yes.

Luchadores often become vampires or werewolves or transhumans. The Sabbat encourages luminaries to become Luchadores, and subsequently attempts to recruit them. It's all very Aztec.

Seriously, like the Luchador films in the real world, it's almost exactly the Aztec practice of having warriors were masks and brightly colored outfits and then wrestling to summon rain or settle public policy.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:00 pm

Still no good, JE.

Iron age peoples drove ought more primitive peoples using iron. They called those people the fey and said they were weak against iron. Centuries later, christianizing missionaries redefined elves and shit as demonic forces and minions of Satan. They also tried to stamp out belief in the fey at all.

So either fey are the bronze-age peoples killed off by the Celts, but with actual super-powers, OR they were real haunting presences that the church actually drove out. You can't have it both ways.

According to the write-up, the Sabbat drove the Sidhe off of earth. The Sabbat were seriously organized in the 5th century CE. That's way after iron stopped being cool. If I had to associate a metal with *christianity* I would choose silver. Not because it, too, doesn't have pagan roots: silver was a sacred metal to germanic pagans (IIRC) long before christianity started, but because silver retained its magical status into christian times, while iron really didn't.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:10 pm

Actually the Fey were pretty much driven out of their Earth colonies in pre-Camarilla days. North Africans building golems to fight the Maltese roll Kingdom and all that. The Sabbat went around destroying records of humanity's defeat of the Fey, they didn't do the fighting the first time around.

It's left pretty vague, but the Shattered Empire might have had a bunch of Fey in the New World when the Sabbat started kicking ass and taking names in the 16th century.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:50 pm

If the Sidhe were driven out in pre-christian history, why were the Daeva still persecuted by the Sabbat during the 17th century?

... OH. Because the Sabbat first encountered Daeva when they came to the New World, and they assumed they were another Sidhe colony...

Gotcha.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:11 am

The Sidhe are actually Demons, not Fey - but a Demon colony would be even worse than a Fey colony.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:25 am

Wow, that's totally fucked. My own prejudices/instinces, and wikipedia, strongly suggest that anything called "Sidhe" should be a fey, not a demon, if we're drawing a dividing line.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:32 am

Orion wrote:Wow, that's totally fucked. My own prejudices/instinces, and wikipedia, strongly suggest that anything called "Sidhe" should be a fey, not a demon, if we're drawing a dividing line.

I could I suppose rename them. But calling them "succubi" has problems of its own. Sidhe = beautiful, evil, otherworldly. There really isn't a specific name for the category of demons that happen to show up looking like attractive humans that doesn't have way worse problems for being sex specific. Demons and fey are not different things in most philosophies.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:41 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Orion wrote:Wow, that's totally fucked. My own prejudices/instinces, and wikipedia, strongly suggest that anything called "Sidhe" should be a fey, not a demon, if we're drawing a dividing line.
I could I suppose rename them. But calling them "succubi" has problems of its own. Sidhe = beautiful, evil, otherworldly. There really isn't a specific name for the category of demons that happen to show up looking like attractive humans that doesn't have way worse problems for being sex specific. Demons and fey are not different things in most philosophies.

-Username17

I tend to use "'cubi" for a non-gender specific term... yes, it's stupid, but it works.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:44 am

Prak wrote:I tend to use "'cubi" for a non-gender specific term... yes, it's stupid, but it works.

I am not going to do that. Firstly, because it's stupid. Secondly, because that doesn't even sound like something that would be in any way associated with demons and is in fact a real thing that is in fact totally unrelated to demons.

-Username17

endersdouble · Post by **endersdouble** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:45 am

Nethack players say "foocubi", but that's probably too nerdy.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:52 am

didn't know about the modern art thing.

what about Cubare, one of the root words of Succubus, which means "to lie".

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:03 am

Prak_Anima wrote: what about Cubare, one of the root words of Succubus, which means "to lie".

No.

-Username17

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:46 am

What is the source material for Spriggans? I have basically never seen a spriggan shown as the things you described in the spriggan write-up. Why do they have the powers they have? Why do they roll around in filth?

Why are Sidhe demons and not fey? Why not just switch sidhe and spriggans around, making the lineup Ifrit, Spriggan, Akuma and Troll, Sidhe, Goblin.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:06 am

"Sidhe" seriously means MOUND. They are the people who live under the earth. You don't get any more classically fey, and they explicitly map onto the backstory for aWoD "fey."

Now, I don't necessarily care about the etymology and whatnot. I agree with the spirit of the "therianthrope" sidebar. But it's seriously really difficult to remember that Sidhe are supposed to be demons and not fey, since I associate the word with beauty more than with evil. A lot of works that portray fairies relatively benevolently still use the word.

I do acknowledge that the source material doesn't distinguish fairies and demons much at all... which is kinda my point. If you're going to pretend they're two separate things, you should make them more different than just being 2 different humanoid factions from hell. It's nice that one is from earth and the other isn't, but they both live in hell now. I guess demons have a harder time getting out?

---

If you have to rename Sidhe, some suggestions:

Elohim
Seraphs, if you can stomach non-fiery seraphs, else Angels
Daimons (rename "demons" to "fiends")
Satans
Erel/Erelim
Asuras

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:27 am

Prak_Anima wrote: what about Cubare, one of the root words of Succubus, which means "to lie".

cubo, cubare, cubui, cubitus V INTRANS [XXXBO]
lie (down/asleep); recline, incline; lie/be in bed, rest/sleep; be sick/dead

So yeah, the root of "succubus" is "sub cubare" - "to lie under"*. Like a prostitute, which is what "succubus" actually means in (medieval) Latin.

I have no interest in playing a character whose supernatural type might translate to "recliner" just because you were lazy and only checked the first word in the definition.

*Likewise, "Incubi" means "to lie in/on". Take your pick.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:16 am

None of those names work, except possibly Asuras. Anything that means essentially "angel" is right out for reasons I've gone into at length.

Elohim
Seraphs, if you can stomach non-fiery seraphs, else Angels
Daimons
Satans
Erel/Erelim
Asuras

Daimons and Satans are terrible names for a type of demon, because the word just means "demon." You would do as well to name a type of vampire "vampyr."

And Asuras are giants. While a decent enough name for either Akuma or Trolls, it's a pretty out-there name for this. When people say Asura, I think this. Although, you have a point, in that in recentish years people have been using it for this in Rappelz. And after all, if we can't have our mythology rewritten by Korean MMOs, what can we draw upon for our folk customs?

So yeah, do people want to rename the Sidhe to Asuras? Does anyone have any more esoteric suggestions like Liliends, Lamastu, or Yazata?

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:10 pm

Lillend is unacceptable because it breaks the "no Abrahamic" rule.

Speaking of which: I know we've argued this before, so I'm going to limit myself to one post on this: (though I still want to hear a reply). You're still wrong to exclude abrahamic myths, and in fact are extra-wrong because of the other crap you've written into the setting.

You have the Shattered Empire, whose entire schtick is to cause or imitate human religions. You have the Sabbat, who infiltrated the catholic church, presumably, the same way the Camarilla infiltrated western corporations.

But more importantly, you're trying to pretend that Fey and Demons are different things.

Now, there's a couple ways you could do this. You could go with them just being different cultural tribes. Base all the fey of celtic/germanic shit, and all the demons off greek or assyrian or whatever. Call your Sidhe Nymphs or Furies or some shit.

But to to most, if you asked them to distinguish *demons* from *fey* they'd say that the differences is that demons are *Christian* monsters.

I'm not proposing introducing a god or gods into the cosmology. Rather, I'm pointing out that the Sidhe resemble many depictions of fallen angels, and that anyone in the World of Darkness would notice this, because christianity also exists there. Therefore, they would have been named after fallen angels because that's the myth they resembled.

-----

New suggestions (and better than the previous):

Nephilim
Malakim (messengers, close homophone to "kings")

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:18 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:So yeah, do people want to rename the Sidhe to Asuras? Does anyone have any more esoteric suggestions like Liliends, Lamastu, or Yazata?

I prefer leaving the Sidhe with their present name. It fits intuitively for me at least. And it's just potentially confusing enough to make for some more entertaining games.

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Orion wrote:Lillend is unacceptable because it breaks the "no Abrahamic" rule.

There is a "no angel" rule, not a "no-Abrahamic" rule. Hence golems, which are found primarily (though not originally) in Jewish folklore.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:14 pm

But to to most, if you asked them to distinguish *demons* from *fey* they'd say that the differences is that demons are *Christian* monsters.

This is absolutely false.

At most a third of the world thinks "Christianity" when they hear the word "demon." I certainly don't. I think of D&D.

-Username17

Gelare · Post by **Gelare** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:16 pm

I do think "fey" when I hear "sidhe", so I support moving that around. Lillend would be fine, except insofar as I know them primarily from D&D, where they're good-aligned. Nephilim does sound pretty cool, although those I know primarily from Magic, where they're giant hideous monsters, not sexy. Also, Frank, is there something people might be able to help with aside from city writeups and spellchecking?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:52 pm

Gelare wrote:Also, Frank, is there something people might be able to help with aside from city writeups and spellchecking?

At some point I'd like to get some play-throughs and some feedback on some powers being too strong or too weak. Suggestions of stuff that people want to do in Action Sequences would be good too.

But probably the biggest aid would be to have people run through the Merits and Flaws of past World of Darkness games and put up a wishlist. Maybe even some initial writeups on those. I mean, honestly there are thousands of Merits, Flaws, Backgrounds, Traits, and whatever that World of Darkness has thrown around at various times, and tracking it all down and distilling it to something usable is exhausting.

-Username17